Today I got a weaving-today mail, where I could read this:

"As a textile, true satin must be woven of filament yarn. A satin-structure cloth woven of staple yarn is called sateen. When satin is woven without patterning, the warp-float side is considered the right side. On a handloom, however, satin is often woven weft-floats-up because lifting one shaft is much easier than lifting all the others." (in case this looks odd, I copied/pasted from the e-mail...)


Satin *must* be woven of filament yarn??? Else it is called sateen??? (I did google, and some sites, like wisegeek for instance, seems to agree. My (Swe) weaving books do not - what is the weavers ideas?

I have never heard of a weave structure that "must" be used with a specific yarn type. Am I just ignorant?

And, while I'm writing: in Sweden we don't use the word sateen (in handweaving literature, at least). What exactly is sateen? (except, obviously, "woven of staple yarns" ;-)

Then there is satinet: Murphy tends to use that for patterned (turned?) broken twill - what do you understand by satinet? (that also is not used in Swe...)

Comments

Fri, 03/30/2012 - 16:42

Artistry

I have never heard that Satin must be woven of Filament yarns. I would like to know that reference. What is a filament yarn anyways? I take it to mean a very smooth thin yarn.while Satin is the warp float, sateen is the weft float appearing on the backside of the satin. Or alongside the satin in turned satin. It's interesting, to put before the group who reads this thread, does Satin always need to be shiny? If, ( and I know this has been a topic of great discussion here) it's own structure could Satin be made out of let's say boucle and still be called Satin? Or must it always have the glossy appearance we're accustomed too?
Fri, 03/30/2012 - 16:49

Joanne Hall

Very good questions Kerstin.  She is correct that weavers here do not weave satin very often.   And I don't hear many discussions about it.  In Sweden, 10 shaft looms are common, but in the US, few have them.  Most are 8 shaft. 

I too was wondering where Karen got this information, but I suppose that she googled.

Joanne

Fri, 03/30/2012 - 17:05

Artistry

I have been googling too since I saw this and saw much of what was quoted by the article. I think it's the difference, between mill talk and weaver talk? I enjoy weaving Satin and and would be quite surprised after all these years I had been weaving something else :)
Fri, 03/30/2012 - 17:25

Slipstream (not verified)

According to the "Fabric Catalog" a reference book written by Martin Hardingham he defines Satin as "A weave construction which is the reverse of sateen weave producing a warp faced fabric. Usually the weft is thiicker than the warp" and Sateen as "a weave construction which is the reverse of satin weave producing a weft faced fabric..." satin in all of my resources seems to be defined as a weave structure regardless of the type of material used. 

A very interesting discussion of Satin weave is found in the Canadian publicaiton "Master Weaver" issue 31 of January 1957 it goes on to say "A real Satin must be woven on 5 frames at least..." The monograph then goes on with a very mathematical analysis of the weave structure and develps an excellent graphic definition of what a Satin weave is supposed to look like. If you have access to this monograph it is worth the read.

So it looks like the definition of Satin is one of structure specifically.

Regards, Charles

Fri, 03/30/2012 - 17:41

Slipstream (not verified)

Satinet in the same article referenced above in  "Master Weaver' issue 31 defines satinet as a broken twill.  "With 4 frames we have several broken twills. They are all of the 1:3 type (over one under three). None of them is real Satin, but they are the nearest thing and therefore called Satinet (Satinette) = imitation satin..."

Fri, 03/30/2012 - 18:04

tien (not verified)

So far as I know, satin-the-weave-structure has a warp-dominant "top" side and is structured as a kind of skip twill - with the number of skips being the "counter" number until you come back to the beginning.  The reverse side, which is weft-dominant, is called sateen.  (I think that definition is from Sharon Alderman's Mastering Weave Structures, but I might be wrong.)  Claire Shaeffer's Fabric Sewing Guide (Claire Shaeffer is an expert on couture sewing) also says that satin has warp-wise floats and sateen has weft-wise floats.

Satin-the-fabric, however, is usually a fine fabric woven with filament yarns to give it the glossiness you associate with satin.  Sateen is typically woven of cotton and doesn't have the same shine.  But Claire Shaeffer at least - who looks at it from a fabric/sewing perspective - is quite explicit that what makes it sateen is the weft floats, not the material.

So I'd say that Weaving Today is wrong on this particular count.

Fri, 03/30/2012 - 23:00

kerstinfroberg

as a curiosity, v Engeström (1896) calls (warp-dominant) broken twill "tied-away wind".  Others of that era call it "parkum", which I don't find half as ... cute?

(Filament yarn - would you think horsehair would qualify?)

Fri, 03/30/2012 - 23:08

kerstinfroberg

from the weaving forum: from my Swe perspective, ticking would (also) be tied-away wind, er, un-even broken twill, I mean?

Tue, 04/03/2012 - 02:47

Bonnie Inouye (not verified)

I read that article today and found it disappointing. She did a little bit of research and wove a piece of basic satin. But there are weavers using satin in North America and more satin weavers in Europe. I know people in the USA and Canada who have woven 15-shaft and 20-shaft satin with curving designs using network drafting with 5-end satin. Also 8-end satins on 24 or 32 shafts... It does not have to be blocks or stripes if you do not have a drawloom. This article could discourage others from trying satin and I wonder if this was the goal, but do not understand why.

Bonnie

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