HI

I' interested in people's thoughts on vertical vs horizontal CM. I have a 110 cm Glimåkra standard CB, 4 shafts. My plan has always been to eventually get the CM for it, as well as 6 more shafts. I live in an old house with 9' ceilings, so there's plenty of headroom, and I think the ceiling fan is far enough away :)  I've only ever woven on a vertical CM, so I'm curious what the difference is.

marie

Comments

Sun, 09/20/2009 - 20:17

Sara von Tresckow

 There is not much difference. I think the main one is the absence of center cords. On very fine work, the cords could rub against the warp, but on my horizontal CM looms, it has always been quite enough to leave 2-4 empty Texsolv heddles around the cords and make sure that the reed is centered so that there are no threads running diagonally.

As far as tieup and balance, both work equally well. Unless you are putting something like a drawloom attachment that requires one type or the other, it is best to put the CM on the loom that was originally made for it. I have witnessed that someone trying to convert a horizontal CM to vertical had difficulty with the lams, their spacing, and the ability to form a shed.

In other words, the countermarche that was originally designed for your loom - in the case of the Glimakra Standard it has usually been horizontal - will be the best fit. The Öxabäck looms, on the other hand have pretty much always shipped with vertical - and both brands are highly recommended.

 

Sun, 09/20/2009 - 21:38

ingamarie

So it's the horizontal that has the center cords?  I don't remember them being on the Vertical-- which were indeed Öxabäck-- gosh those were nice looms!  But mine is a lowly Glimåkra-- what is Sweden is referred to as a 'vanlig vävstol'-- a regular loom.  And so it seems that I should be looking at the horizontal.

thanks!
marie\

Sun, 09/20/2009 - 23:39

joesullins

Marie -

I don't know if you saw it, but Vavstuga just had a sale of various equipment and among those were CMs for Glimakra.  I know because I picked up one for my 60" Glimakra.  They were very reasonably priced and when I left they still had quite a few.  You may be able to contact them directly to see if you can get one for a lot less than "retail".

Good Luck!

Joe

Fri, 10/02/2009 - 17:45

fantasticfelter (not verified)

 i have had both horizontal and vertical CM looms. i love my vertical CM much better. i really disliked the center cord , and never realized it till i had my vertical .

Fri, 10/02/2009 - 17:59

joesullins

Sara -

This is an excellent tip and I thank you for it!  I have not had any trouble with the cords rubbing against the warp threads, but I will definitely try this in the future.  I had worried about using very fine threads and if the abrasion might create problems. 

Thanks!

Joe

Mon, 10/05/2009 - 21:23

Joanne Hall

Glimakra looms have always been sold with a choice of a horizontal or a vertical countermarch, at least since the 60s.  I don't have much history on the looms before that.  But the horizontal countermarch has always been just a little cheaper in price than the vertical, so that is why you often find Glimakra looms with a horizontal countermarch.   Either type of countermarch can be purchased for a new or an older loom. 

I have not had a problem with the center cord going down through the warp.

But, there is another reason that some prefer the Glimakra vertical countermarch, beyond the center cord.  In the 70s when most looms were four shaft, the horizontal countermarch was made with the lower lamms the same length as the upper lamms.  The vertical countermarch has always had the lower lamms long enough to extend to the outside of the loom as this was necessary for the tie-up.

When weavers became more interested in weaving with more shafts, looms were delivered with 6 or 8 shafts more often.  The vertical countermarch tie-up performed better.   It was determined that the lower lamms for the horizontal countermarch needed to be heavier, especially for 8 shaft weaves.  So, about l980 they started to make them longer.  After a couple years, they made them the full width of the loom, almost as long as the lower lamms on the vertical countermarch. 

So, if you have purchased a used loom and it is more than 25 years old, it may have lower lamms which are only a few inches longer than the upper lamms, or they are the same length.  This causes problems with 8 shaft weaves, causing the front shafts to sink about an inch when you take the locking pins out.  One can weave with this happening, but it is not as neat looking.

The effect is more evident on very narrow looms, as there is not as much difference in the lengths of the lamms.  The Ideal loom is now two inches taller, so there is no problem with space for the lamms to move when tying up 8 shafts.

You can put weights on the lower lamms for the front shafts or you can purchase new longer lamms.

Or, you can tie up an extra treadle, or a board which is like a treadle, tying the lower lamms to this treadle, sometimes just for the front shafts.  That will add the weight of the treadle to the lower lamms.  This extra treadle is also used on drawlooms to clear the shed and stabilize the untied lamms.

I have seen weights put on treadles to offset this problem, but it best to weight only the lower lamms. 

The new looms with the longer lamms work much better.  Often when someone who has purchased a used loom tells me they are having a tie-up problem, I ask them how long their lower lamms are, as that is usually the problem. 

Beyond this, the most common problem I run into is when weavers tie up the treadles too high.

Joanne

Fri, 10/23/2009 - 16:50

fantasticfelter (not verified)

 this is valuable info! i bought an amazing 25 yr old standard glimakara loom11 yrs ago. i had to change the lamms to the longer ones, it made a huge difference.  took me  quite a long time and a lot of phone calls to determined this, would never had know this problem and i was not on the computer back then. so thank you for sharing  this!, it is  not a well know fact about the lamm problems.i no longer have that loom, it did have horizontal cm. i am really loving the vertical cm now. fantastic info really!

Mon, 10/26/2009 - 19:46

Ellen (not verified)

Hi Joanne,

This was really very good and informative. This is the answer to a problem I have been wondering about for close to 10 Years. I have just recently come across another comment here on Weavolution somewhere, which gave me a clue about those too short lamms, but your explanation was just so thorough.

I think I shall have to buy 10 of the new, longer and heavier lower lamms. So far I just put up with the muisance, but now I actually know there is a solution. Thank you,

Ellen

 

Sat, 10/31/2009 - 17:02

Ellen (not verified)

Just had to tell you that I have ordered 10 new lower lamms (from the Swedish firm,as I am living in Denmark) and really look forward to experiencing what difference it will make. What Joanne explained above makes me think never mind the rather formidable cost, that loom means so much to me and has given me so much joy in the last 10 years, she's worth it :-)

Sat, 12/26/2009 - 08:28

Daleweaver (not verified)

I bought my 110 cm Glimakra Standard as a 4-shaft counterbalance loom almost a decade ago, and in 2003 I worked with Joanne Hall to upgrade it to a 10s, 12t, horizontal countermarche loom.  This has been a very worthwhile decision, and I do not regret my choice.  I can also fully endorse using Joanne Hall's services if you live in the US.  She is amazing to work with and very knowledgeable.

Until reading this discussion, I never thought of the center cords chaffing the warp.  Never been a problem, so it has never occurred to me.  I guess I may have thought of it if I had ever woven on a vertical countermache.  It would be nice to do this sometime, but I have not had the pleasure yet.

Stephen in Cloverdale, CA