20+ CM TIE UP!

Hello to all. I am starting a new thread in behalf of a member seeking information on the "20+ " tie up system. Since the original request was posted deep to a very early thread. Kristin Duckworth would appreciate any information to replicate this unique tie up which,as I understand will bring the tie up to the front of the loom, thus bringing great ease to the weaver, hence adding 20+ years to a weavers enjoyment! I'm sure some photo's would help also. Very interesting! Frank.

Comments

Posted on Thu, 03/01/2012 - 18:13

No, the 20+ brings the tieup to the rear of the loom via extra long Texsolv cords. It supposedly works well - but takes a bit of patience setting up and LOTS of Texsolv tieup cord.

There is a box with holes mounted at the back of the loom that holds the pegs for the ties, and that avoids any need to sit under the loom. It was/is produced by Woolhouse tools.

Nearly as efficient is the method of looping the tie cords around the treadles, long enough to reach the upper lams, and pegging each tie at the appropriate lam - upper or lower - by simply bending over the loom with breast and knee beam removed.

Posted on Thu, 03/01/2012 - 19:09

Thanks Sara, to the back it is! Hopefully we'll still get more info, as I have been intrigued myself with anything that might reduce crawling around on the floor with bad knees. Frank.

Posted on Thu, 03/01/2012 - 19:36

There are some pretty pictures on the web, last I checked, the originator (I also think its Woolhouse Tools) still had very clear pictures.  Also several blogs.  Lots of discussions on advantages, disadvantages, how to use, etc. 

Sufficient for a reasonably handy person to replicate.

You could probably do it with something cheaper than texsolve, but plan on a lot of fiddling to get the knots in just the right place. 

Jeff Anderson

Livonia, MI

Posted on Fri, 03/02/2012 - 01:10

When I bought my 1970's Toika Liisa it had already been converted to what I now call the 10+ system by the engineer husband of the former owner. I think the loom had 12 or possibly 16 shafts but now has 8 shafts and 10 treadles. The tie up is on the support beam at the bottom of the loom, not level with the back beam. I still have to get on the floor but not under the treadles so I expect it to add 10 years to my weaving life. There are lots of long cords connecting to a board and the cords are secured by golf tees, it works just fine.
I am at work at the moment but will post some pictures when I get home and also the reference to the way it was done. There is a reference in Marianne Straub's book to an issue of the UK journal in the 1960's but unfortunately my Guild library collection is not complete for that era and of course the one I want is missing

Posted on Fri, 03/02/2012 - 01:31

Hi Jeff,

Could you direct me to some web pictures? I've only seen the Woolhouse tools one. I'm not planning to use Texsolve cord, just plain venetian blind cord and screw eyes on the treadles. I've tested using a small (3/4") nail through the cord to anchor it at the tie-up point: works well.

Could you also let me know any blogs you mentioned, as I have not seen any that mention the system.

Thanks heaps,

Kristin

Posted on Fri, 03/02/2012 - 01:43

Hi Louiseinoz,

Where in Melbourne are you? I'm not far out. I like the idea of the golf tees to hold the cords. Do you just jam them into the hole the cord is going through? This could work well!

Kristin.

Posted on Fri, 03/02/2012 - 02:51

Nice to know there's another Toika owner nearby - I scored mine just last month from NSW; absolutely worth the trip to collect it.

Will be interested to see more of the 20+ system in this thread.

Posted on Mon, 03/05/2012 - 11:19

Here's the information I promised earlier. The reference is in Marianne Straub's book, 'Handweaving and Cloth Design', pages 33 to 34 where there is also a reference to an article by Peter Collingwood in the Quarterly Journal of the Guilds of Weavers, Spinners and Dyers No 49, March 1964. I've added some photos of my loom, the first one shows the whole board where there are 10 double rows with 8 holes in each with cords secured by golf tees.

The next shows more detail of the holes I use for treadles 9 and 10 - 10 is on the left and is tied so that shafts 2, 5 and 7 rise while 1,3,4, 6 and 8 fall. The holes on the left of the column control the rising shafts while those on the left control the falling ones.

The other picture shows the cords threaded through pieces of metal with, I think, 16 small plastic rollers. They are the same width as the treadles and look almost custom made for the job but I suspect they were designed for something else altogether and have been repurposed.

At last I've been able to include the pictures I promised on Friday.  Many thanks to Erica who suggested that I change from Internet Explorer to Firefox or Google Chrome.  Once I did that the pictures loaded first time - I won't have to waste any more good weaving time fighting with the computer

Posted on Fri, 03/02/2012 - 16:10

On my Arm loom, I devised a way to tie up that uses less texsolv.   First, I slightly opened up the loop on a bunch of eye hooks and installed these (one under each lower lam) on the upper side of the treddles.

Then I got some stong chord and cut lengths.   I put the ends together and tied a knot to create a loop.   I slipped the end of the loop through the last hole in a short piece of texsolv, and then again through the chord.  This creates an "extension" of the texsolv that is one big loop.

To attatch it to a lam, I just fold the chord part over a lam and slip the texsolv part through the chord loop on the other side of the lam and pull it tight.   The texsolv part hangs down and can be slipped into the open eye hook on the treddle, using what ever hole in the texsolv that I need.

The advantages of this are using less texsolv, I can do every thing from the top of the treddles, and the large chord loops are easier to loop through than the small texsolv chords.  Plus, I made all my tie-ups (chord loops plus texsolv) the same length.   Then I made another set of chord loops that I can use as a second extension when I want to tie to the upper lams.   Doing it this way and making the chord loops the right length means that each tie-up can be done with only 4 to 6 inches of texsolv.   Since I have 12 harnesses and 20 treddles, that's a maximum of 240 tie-ups that I needed to make.   So, reducing the amount of texsolv saved a lot of money.

As for the chord for the chord loops, kite chord works well and can be found in weights that can hangle ove 200 pounds of load!

Finally, since the Arm loom is large enough to sit inside of, I have a garden kneeler.   I can put it behind the lams at the back and just sit there.   The advantage of the kneeler is that it has legs that are narrow and straight up and down, so it fits well bewteen the treddles, and you can sit at two different heights just by turning it over.   They sell at Target for about $31.

 

Posted on Fri, 03/02/2012 - 22:10

Here is a picture of the tie up extenders I made.   The texsolv pieces are about 9 inches, but they didn't need to be that long if I'd made the extenders longer.   I think 4 or 5 inches of texsolv would have been enough.

Here they are installed.   The large loop on the extenders make them really easy to hang on the lams.   Just loop around the lam, pull the end through the big loop, and slip onto the open eye hook on the treddle.   Easy!

The little sticks to the side of the treddles are held against the open side of the eye hooks with rubber bands.   They are there to keep the texsolv from "jumping" out while treddling.   I don't know if that will happen or not, but these sticks prevent it just in case.

And here is the garden kneeler I mentioned:

Hope this helps!

 

Posted on Sun, 03/04/2012 - 12:03

I'm not having any success adding photos to earlier post so will try a new post but still no luck as the band at the top with all the options has disappeared

Posted on Sat, 03/03/2012 - 10:21

Thanks for some great pictures. I can easily sit on the beam near the floor, but those strings give food for thought. I would not find it easy to put eye hooks into my treadles, but this does seem tempting :-)

Posted on Wed, 03/07/2012 - 01:45

Thanks for the photos, they are nice and clear.

A couple of questions: Those rollers on the treadles; do you have 16 rollers? ie one for each lamm? As I can only see one cord going around each.

Also, your board looks very thin to support all that tension. How do you support the board?

Looking forward to a good look at Easter. Kristin

Posted on Wed, 03/07/2012 - 09:39

 

Hi Kristin and anyone else who's interested

I've just had a good look under the loom. There are 16 rollers and they attach alternately to the upper and lower lams. I thinks it's probably designed to keep the cords separate and stop them tangling.

The board is not really thin, I think it's just the angle that makes it look like a piece of plywood. As you can see in the photo (now that I've mastered inserting photos) it's a nice solid piece of probably Victorian Ash hardwood about 15 mm or 5/8" thick and actually there's not that much tension involved as you will see when you visit

Hope this helps

 

Posted on Sat, 03/24/2012 - 18:25

I actually have a 20+ tie up assist and find it invaluable!

I have a hip replacement and osteo-athritis in my other joints  and so this method saves me much grief and effort.

I have posted pictures etc at my blog, so if you go to http://weeverwoman.blogspot.com and then look under Topic Shopping...then equipment... you'll see 2-3 links to the 20+ including setting it up, adjustments, and further uses of the 20+.

I went for the one made by WoolhouseTools but do know of at least two that were either built entirely by the loom owner (16 shaft-60" Woolhouse) and one down in Canberra that was built on a rear treadle loom by the weavers husband based on my pictures and some measurements.

There is a weaver on a Ravelry weaving group who has a WoolhouseTools made 20+ on her Scandinavian loom and loves it!

Susan

Posted on Sat, 03/24/2012 - 19:03

Sally,

You have just reinvented a slight variation of the pre-Texsolv tieup for CM looms. One piece of linen loom cord was looped around the lam and another was pushed through the hole in the treadle and secured at the bottom with a knot or a knot with a button or metal pin to keep it from pulling through. The two were then joined above the treadle to form the tieup.

With the linen loom cord, a slip knot was used because it could easily be adjusted to provide the back to front slack.

Really, looping the tie cord around the treadle and through the hole and pegging or adjusting at the lam on the way up is probably just as easy on ay body as all these devices.

Posted on Thu, 04/12/2012 - 04:11

Well, I've spent the last month or so building my version of the 20+ on the back of my 48" Finlandia. I used 2.5mm venetian blind cord, 21mm screw eyes on the treadles, and the wonderful golf tee idea for securing the cords. Thank heavens for a drill press for doing all the holes. I did it for 8 shafts and 12 treadles, so 192 holes on the back board!

 

Posted on Thu, 04/12/2012 - 05:18

Wow Kristin, nice work! Looks like the picture is certainly worth a thousand words!

Posted on Fri, 04/13/2012 - 18:34

Pretty please, a closeup photo of the eye hooks on the treadle with the cord going thru them? I see two eye hooks per lamm on your treadle in the top photo ( i think) did you alternate the cords to ease the cord traffic congestion? Or is the two eye hooks for a short & long lamm? I am not familiar with the finlandia original tie up.

Posted on Fri, 04/13/2012 - 19:19

My question relates to fine-tuning each shed once the warp is tied to the apron rod. Wouldn't one have to go back and forth to the back of the loom to adjust each shed? And I have a similar question about Sara's method -- when fine-tuning, obviously the breast and knee beams are in the way, so it would be difficult to adjust the cords at that point.

Posted on Wed, 04/18/2012 - 21:36

I bought a 20+ a couple of years ago from Woolhouse.  It is wonderful for changing the tie-up!  At 66 my joints just couldn't handle all that getting down on the floor (and of course the phone would ring just then!).

Can anyone suggest how to improve the shed?  I use two boards and 2 sturdy C-clamps to hold them all at the same level while tying up, but still have uneven results.

Posted on Wed, 04/18/2012 - 21:37

I use the boards and C clamps to hold the treadles at the same level, not some other part of the loom.

Posted on Wed, 04/18/2012 - 21:53

The question to me about pegging up from the treadles - you can usually go in from the side and make some fine adjustments at the beginning of a piece. Naturally halfway through it gets a bit more difficult.

I usually reach in from the side at that point.

When you've woven for a long time, you get these adjustments down to something that usually works without a lot of fine tuning. I seldom need to adjust more than 3-4 connections. Analyzing which connection needs adjustment and in which direction simplifies also.

Posted on Thu, 04/19/2012 - 05:26

After you have tied up a few warps, the tie-up becomes very easy and very little adjustment is needed.  When I am teaching and I tie-up the treadles as a demonstration, we then check the sheds.  I usually find that the sheds are fine and I have to make a bad adjustment on purpose to demonstrate how to adjust the treadle cords.

And tying up the treadles on a countermarch takes only about 1 minutes per treadle more time than on a jack loom.

Joanne

Posted on Sun, 11/04/2012 - 22:12

I got a file off Weavelution with exact directions for doing this to a Glimakra. I haven't tried it yet, but I do think I'll give it a try. You don't have to do anything permenate to the loom to begin with, so you can try it out and see how it works for you and if not just remove it. I really don't like the thought of drilling holes in my loom!

Dori Ann

 

Posted on Mon, 11/05/2012 - 02:03

I bought a 20+ from Woolhouse Tools for the barn frame loom, and i am making one for the "New" Lervad.  The Woolhouse 20+ uses two rows of screw eyes on each treadle.  The treadles on the Lervad have holes in the middle of each treadle, and no room to drill more holes.  I am using one large eye screwed into the existing holes in the treadles that will carry cords from both upper and lower lamms.  I have been using the 20+ on the barn frame for about a year and wouldn't think of owning a multi harness countermarche without it.  Other people have mentioned other methods that they think are as good, but they're still crawling around under the loom, and I'm not.

Posted on Mon, 11/05/2012 - 03:44

the treadles with screw eyes

 

side view of backboard

I only drilled 2 holes at the back to mount the backboard on. Also each treadle has 2 small holes, one each side of the centre hole for each shaft.I put screw eyes into these; one side for top lamms and the other side for bottom lamms.

Kristin

 

Posted on Thu, 09/25/2014 - 15:15

Hi, all - *very* late to this party, but in case anyone is following it... I purchased a 20+ from Woolhouse recently (thanks to my husband saying, after seeing Susan Harvey's, "You need this.") and installed it on my Glimakra Standard. I'm now threading the first warp and will then proceed with the actual tie-up. My adventures are on Rav here http://www.ravelry.com/projects/PadreWayne/20-tie-up-system

Will report back once I've done my first tie-up and adjustments - I really want 20+ more years of weaving! :-)

Posted on Wed, 11/29/2017 - 20:26

thanks for creating this group, after back surgery, crawling under my Cranbrook is not as easy....has anyone put one on their Cranbrook?  I am talking to John and we are exchanging photos.  

Posted on Sun, 12/03/2017 - 03:56

I do have the Woolhouse base to mount on the back of my Liisa 8/10. I bought it early this year. I don't have all the texsolv yet. I'm buying that slowly. Eyelets will be another thing.

As this is my first CM loom, I decided to wait to switch in order to get confident on the loom before turning it into something else. I have to say though, that the amount of time I'll be able to spend inside the loom to tieup is rapidly decreasing. Father time......

Great photos though. Thank you all. A big help for when I do the switch!

Posted on Tue, 06/09/2020 - 12:57

 any new up to date  comments  concerning the 20+ system?  2019? 2020?

due to the  pandemic, I'm finding I have the time to finish the 20+ project I started  several years ago!

I have 8 shafts tied up on this 16 harness loom............ I just want to know who if any  out there are using this system, have built this  tie up system for their looms.....   or  have had  trouble doing so.  I have had to be inventive  to use less texsolve.  I could not afford the WOOLHOUSE  precut 20+ system they sold - so am  working slowly to get it done.  (I think  WOOLHOUSE Looms are out of  business now, does anyone know?)

When I first started my inquiry into the 20+  I spoke to them but  their system was just  way out of my price range.  Theu made nice looms, and I  have one  I bought used.    but .... was difficult to tie up all those shafts, from the start.    

Please reply  to the group  if you can  add  any experience  with the 20+, Id appreciate it!

Posted on Tue, 06/09/2020 - 14:46

I have a 20+ that I bought from Woolhouse for an 8 shaft loom, and one I made myself for a 12 shaft.  They're not hard to make: mine is a little messy looking because I changed the location of the treadles after I constructed it and had to redrill a bunch of holes.  It is more time consuming to set up initially, but makes tieing up the loom very fast and easy after that.  I knew the first time I tied up the 8 shaft CM that I had to do something different; my back wasn't going to take another tie up.  The 8 shaft uses texsolve.  The 12 uses texsolve to hange the shafts (where easy adjustment is needed) and dacron cord everywhere else.  Much cheaper.

Posted on Thu, 07/02/2020 - 08:05

I have a 20+ from Woolhouse Tools attached to their 60" 16 harness, 24 treadle Gertrude loom. I have to say, it is pretty wonderful for adjusting tie-ups. It also requires a *lot* of patience to set up. When I bought this loom (used), it took me probably 50 hours to set up, as each cord had to be attached and threaded through eye hooks and the peg board. I've previously used several different methods for tying up CM looms, and this is my favorite.  That said, I don't think I could ever have justified the price Woolhouse was charging for this system new. I'd have gotten by with my next-favorite method (the one Sara advocates). Boy do I hate spending hours inside the loom adjusting cords though.

I don't think Woolhouse is making these any more, but I'd think if you can find a good carpenter to work with, you could have one constructed. A few hundred dollars invested in Texsolv later (I'm not exaggerating) and you'd be in business!